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What is love? (& other digressions)
#1
So i think i have a problem. It seems to me that there are two types of love that we generally use.

Example #1: I love this show, i love this song...etc
Example #2: I love my mom, dad, sister, brother, wife, kids...etc

I view love as an extreme emotion while also viewing the 2nd one as caring for one another in a deep way. When people tell me we should love one another i am against that. I don't care about building bridges with people unless they benefit me in some way. I'm not trying to be completely egotistical as both parties can mutually benefit each other like being nice, being helpful, selling/buying, interesting conversations...etc

I personally don't mind if i say i don't love you. And if i do... i might refer to example #1 as a temporary moment in time that you made me feel that way. The reason why i'm bringing this up as well is my coworker Farhan who i suspect is trying to manipulate me is expecting me (guilting me) into saying i love him back. And its not just him its other people in my work place that do this too. They have the idea that its okay to simply say it any time they please... and it just devalues the meaning of the word ... that's what bothers me.

I don't think love would be necessary if it wasn't for our biological evolution to wire us in this way. It was beneficial then but now i see it as some sort of flaw. The more logical and clear someone is the better they are, the more emotional someone is the more likely they are to be out of control. And this can also be seen in mental disorders/diseases. To say its equally likely for both logical vs emotional people to be affected in the same way seems false. There are treatments that do a better job at combating these types of illnesses but you can also do it the old fashioned way (the hard way) such as doing logical problems, puzzles, math, anything to help stimulate your mind in new directions. People who stay emotional I would think have a hard time coping with this sort of stuff since they are not actively fixing their mind. That's not to say emotional people can't be saved it just seems better overall to be logical. Emotional people can still make these new connections without the use of logic and problem solving by doing new activities and such, like if they never tried painting they can do that and also learn how to play the sax. While both persons are capable of doing the same activities i think the ones who are logical are more likely to stay focused and create more connections.

And one can't be 100% logical, there's always things that we miss and overlook because we are simply human and have that error within us. And its an error some accept as a good thing while i view it as something i want to avoid being a supremacist (not racial supremacist - mind you) seems like a good idea. And this is why i like transhumanism, because eventually we'll be able to be smarter intellectually and it will slightly help us combat these kind of diseases and solve a lot of problems in the future. There's nothing really wrong with being emotional if that's what people prefer. I just like seeing us as a species evolve and things become a whole lot more convenient for us to get food, access information at our fingertips, spark new conversations with new people across the globe... etc

Its my understanding that staying logical will help us fight even our worst biases that were drilled in us at an early age (such as religion). Someone who doesn't even think about these things can be swayed by understanding fallacies and being honest with themselves. If they are honest they are automatically open-minded and will accept reason as truth no matter how crazy such ideas are.

Anyways that's the end of my rant... Any thoughts or concerns?
A sequence of variables thatre engraved since the beginning of the cosmos is responsible for animating things in reality
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#2
Your co-workers might be devaluing the meaning of the word love. But here is what I have to say:

I guess the logical part comes under IQ and the emotion part comes under EQ(Emotional Quotient). For leading a normal life you need to balance both. It does not necessarily mean that you will lose your logic when you love someone. Well that could be true, since you might want to take some action which is illogical but helps strengthen your relationship.

When it comes to family, love is what holds us together. We care for each other etc., Parents still take logical actions of where to put their children to study and in general what is good for the family. We function as an unit and that is what we live for. Although there could be certain circumstances when a problem in your family could affect your work etc., you need to balance both.

I am in a relationship for a month now and I am happy that my girlfriend is as logical as I am. We are in our final year of our college, I know her for three years now and we always remind each other that "studies first". Now I have an extra pressure, or have to study even better to get a better job so that I can settle.

I don't think it can affect your problem solving capability or make you emotionally vulnerable unless you balance them correctly. I think family is the driving force.

I guess this is an apt reply :P .
a.k.a firzenx or X.
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Thanks given by: LutiChris , Rhino.Freak
#3
(Something i forgot to add on my first post)
I remember Fall 2015 i was arguing with my art professor about why i don't love myself and he automatically thought i must have hated myself. Even after explaining my reason he was sure i hated myself. i was like wtf? Why can't i just be neutral? Why must i pick an emotion. For the most part we are not always emotional, if you take a picture of a random person on the street its usually a blank expression (a neutral expression - one without hate or love). I know he probably thought that if i didn't love myself then i probably don't take care of my body. To a certain extent that's kind of true.. my bad habits like eating sweets doesn't increase my life expectancy... but you don't need to be emotional to take care of yourself. I know what he meant. If you love yourself you should take care of yourself. Why can't someone who doesn't love himself also take care of himself for the reasons i have explained above? If i truly took care of my body then i would probably see fit to use that word. The fact that i don't properly take care of myself.. but still manage to do a decent job every now and then doesn't mean i hate myself or am harming my body on purpose. I have a lack of discipline. That is my problem. not hating myself... this should be obvious.. i would think? Am i wrong to think this way?

edit)
@MnM i do think its important to keep them balanced. but i know its not going to be easy to balance them 50/50 so the better side would be being slightly more logical. I think its important if you are in a family that you stay as a unit and take care of one another. I do love my family even over the hardships that we have. I think eventually at some point... would you really say you love your dad at age 9 Trillion? I think (if we are able to live that long) time will eventually force us to consider things like this. Like i don't see how one can have a happy marriage forever. At some point you might get bored of each other and its fine to move on to pursue different interests & lovers. Affection and love is only temporary due to time. What's remaining would be our logical side, this stays with us unless its tampered by age => degenerative state of mind accepts irrational and uncritical thinking and loses its connections until it can no longer function normally. I really don't see emotions benefiting us in the future. Maybe we keep our loving relationship (to anyone or anything) for years, decades or even centuries but eventually at some point i see this changing even for people who are determined to stick with each other. A relationship regardless if its a friend or family member will eventually be stale due to time and other factors. This is the same type of reasoning one may have for interests in general i guess.

edit2)
its healthy to try to keep these two things (logic/emotion) balanced? but why? i'm pretty sure its because of our human bodies. Will keeping these two benefit us if we turn into robots and live for a long time? love and emotion helps bring us closer and we are strong in a group. but as time goes by i don't think we'll really rely on emotion ... we may just be independent and figure things out by ourselves with the many many years of experience and knowledge to aid us i don't see a future where we would rely on each other anymore...

edit3) You can ignore everything bellow this - i go on a tangent
sorry, i know for some of you who've talked to me on this issue (transhumanism) its like im ramming it down your throats but i find it not only a fascinating topic to talk about but i think its very important, and all i can think about lately is death. and my approach for talking with people like my coworker (who says he wants to kill himself) is a bit different... now that i've sorta re-evaluated myself. i mean if i was religious and killed myself or let death eventually catch up with me - i'd think maybe god would still accept me and i'd live a much better life compared to this life on earth. but statistically speaking a transhumaist wager is much better than pascal's wager.

Not only do you have to see if a god exists this doesn't mean it will create a heaven and on top of that this being would also judge your morality/beliefs as the ticket to go to heaven. Adding layer upon layer of these assumptions makes it more and more unlikely for such a specific god to exist. this is why i can't be purely agnostic. needless to say, i'm not 100% certain there is no god. I'm just looking at it as a spectrum of whats more likely based on what we have found out about the universe and everything else (42!). We as a species, have come a long way thanks to technology and innovation. So this is much more promising in my opinion. I'm fine compromising a few things just to be immortal, the only thing i wouldn't want to compromise would be my consciousness. That in and of itself is no guarantee but the likelihood when compared to other alternatives seems much more attractive. If scientists aren't able to do something about it within my life time then my only option would be Cryonics. I would save that towards the end of my years and hope that one day they would revive me some day in the future. I'll need to save a lot of money. I've told this to some of my coworker who are environmentalists. They think this is too egotistical. Maybe everything does boil down to you eventually but it doesn't mean ego is bad. It's only bad if it blinds you just like people who are extremely selfless is actually harmful to your well being. Some of my coworker think there should be less humans in the world because they care more about the earth than they do about humans. I could care less about the earth. The earth can survive on its own. The "green" technology that we use is not very effective compared to oil/gas. I wouldn't mind having an alternative way for us to keep the planet cool as long as it benefits us at the same time. I think we should just adapt and recreate the earth to our liking when we can survive conditions.
A sequence of variables thatre engraved since the beginning of the cosmos is responsible for animating things in reality
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#4
Baby don't hurt me
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#5
^ I wanted to say that! :P

I think at the end of the day, every single one of us has just 1 motive and it is to stay happy. And games or just work is not enough for that no matter how much you 'love' it. We need human affection that does not have a motive or a reason.

Soo.... Being the selfish creatures that we are, it's actually pretty logical to love. :) balance babeh!
(03-20-2016, 06:41 PM)mfc Wrote:  Be the unsqueezable sponge!
My new life motto!
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#6
People don't have the same motive's at the end of the day. If your conviction is that happiness is all that really matters in life, then how would you deal with inevitable stress? the answers that come to mind would be to deny or avoid them. And as a result, by attempting to protect your happiness in this manner, the end result will be minimizing experiences, sticking with what you already know, and in that way avoiding personal development and growth. (Basically im imagining an easy life in my parents basement, having no responsibilities, have someone take care of me (guardians/wife/parents/government), not worry about life's problems aka the news and bills, making sure i dont run into people who hold different beliefs than me, making fun of me, doing challenging stuff, maybe even take drugs ... this reminds me of the kind of students on college campuses who are coddled in this way)

Happiness is really just brain chemistry that can be fixed by other chemical substances or meditation.

I'm not trying to find happiness, that is a bi-product of a life well lived. Happiness/satisfaction will come eventually. I want to know and experience as much as i can, to be interesting enough, and strive to do as many skills as well as i possibly can. i don't think living a few decades is enough for this to be a reality. I'm sure some old people wish they could do more things with their lives if given the chance instead of rotting away in a room waiting for death to creep up on them at any given moment. I dont see how i can take comfort at age 100 when i know nature is robbing me of my choice to live indefinitely. Even if i were to suffer a full 100 years of my life but knowing i would live to be more than 200 years of age is better than living a happy life that ends at age 30. Experiences are unique to everyone and this is what i think is more valuable when compared to a positive emotion that can be tampered with. There are some people who can not even experience love but at least they can still experience everything else life has to offer. Do you think living a stressful life with more experiences triumphs a happy life with less experiences? Or how about this....

(Edit)
Another way i look at it is if you are super old and decide to increasing your life expectancy by staying healthy, avoiding danger, saving your money and minimizing your experiences so that you can one day live to see technology advance to help you live a long time and finally experience whatever without having to worry about not having enough time vs a person who was super duper wealthy and didnt consider the prospect of living for a long time can experience a ton of stuff but only for a limited amount of time.

Clearly one is better than the other because of such investment. Of course it wont mean anything if we don't find out how to live for a long long time :p

Basically my train of thought comes down to this:
Living forever > lots of experiences > happy emotions (love)

Logic and pragmatism ftw!
A sequence of variables thatre engraved since the beginning of the cosmos is responsible for animating things in reality
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#7
Can't bring myself to read these text walls ... but I skimmed the first bit.

The gist of it: you have different definitions (and thus uses) of a word/concept. That's common and normal, for everything. Agree on that fact and kindly ask them to not force you to adapt yours to theirs. And don't let their use of it devalue yours or whatever. These things aren't global variables, so don't fight over it.

(05-10-2016, 06:31 AM)LutiChris Wrote:  Basically my train of thought comes down to this:
Living forever > lots of experiences > happy emotions (love)

What about bad experiences ... most fiction depicts characters with exceedingly long lives as rather depressed for everything they went through.
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#8
I've thought about that. I think if i was living a stressful sad depressing life but have the potential in the future to change that... i think it would be worth it. Experiences no matter how bad they've felt.. they're stories .. id just have to toughen up. Killing myself over how i feel is stupid. There is nothing for me if i do that. My memories, and thoughts make up who i am as far as i know.

For me to avoid feeling this way, i try to keep myself occupied. Which is staying up watching youtube videos, audio books, films or video games. The only time i've really been seriously veen affected was when i broke up with my ex 3 years ago. Other than that i've been content with pretty much everything thats been happening to me so far. If im able to live a long life, being able to talk about my feelings with myself or to others is a good way for me to not feel depressed. Needless to say im sure i'll have more terrible stressful life vs a happy one because that's simply life.
A sequence of variables thatre engraved since the beginning of the cosmos is responsible for animating things in reality
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#9
Such topic. Hello again btw.

I've read a psychological research book about interpersonal processes, theorists proposed many kinds of models to explain love. here are two that gave me some insights.

1. Lee, a sociologist, proposed that there are six distinct styles of love. Three of these styles are considered primary: Eros (romantic, passionate love), Ludus (game-playing love) and Storge (friendship love). The remaining three styles are derived from the primary styles: Mania (possessive, dependent love) is a compound of Eros and Ludus, Pragma (pragmatic, logical love) is a compound of Storge and Ludus, and Agape (selfless, giving love) is a compound of Eros and Storge.

2. Sternberg’s (1986) triangular theory represents another milestone in the study of love. According to this model, love consists of three components: passion, intimacy, and decision/commitment. Passion refers to “the drives that lead to romance, physical attraction, sexual consummation, and related phonemena” (p. 119). The intimacy component refers to feelings of warmth, closeness, and connectedness in a relationship. The decision/commitment component entails the short-term decision that one loves one’s partner as well as the longer-term commitment to maintain that love. These components have been described as the “hot,” “warm,” and “cold” elements of love, respectively.

Citation (Click to View)
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#10
Sternberg's theory sounds slightly better since its closer to my definition of the word. My definition is confined to either a powerful emotion (intimacy) or caring love (decision/commitment). Sometimes the whole "romantic/passionate love" isn't really just love its called lust or infatuation. You can have these feelings for someone but its only temporary and doesn't really amount to anything that i would consider of real net value.

intimacy = close familiarity or friendship; closeness.
commitment = the state or quality of being dedicated to a cause, activity, etc.

passion = strong and barely controllable emotion. <= This is what i refereed to as Example #1 in my first post

I spoke to one of my transhumanist buddies and here's what he had to say on the topic

Roen Horn Wrote:Regarding what you said about love and your coworker: I agree that we should not love everyone. Love should be earned, and loving everyone would indeed devalue the word. Judging by what you wrote, your coworker does seem very manipulative. You said: "I don't care about building bridges with people unless they benefit me in some way" ... I especially love this idea. I completely agree. I don't believe in self-sacrifice. Altruism only makes sense if it increases your chances of living forever. So never think you owe anyone love and attention.

Regarding emotions vs logic: I think the value of logical actions supersedes everything else. First and foremost, our actions will determine if we survive. Emotions are only beneficial IF they influence our actions in a positive way. For example, the emotion of fear helps motivate me to strive for my eternal life. I don't know how my actions would look if I didn't have fear, but it is hypothetically possible I could act just as wisely without fear, being controlled by logic alone. Having said that, I couldn't remove my fear even if I wanted to. Fear seems to have latched onto me like some kind of parasite. But I consider fear to be a beneficial symbiotic parasite. I agree that the worst thing about emotional people is the tendency towards lack of control and mental illness. People who cannot control their behaviors are the most dangerous types of people.

A question: By supremacist, did you mean perfectionist? If so, I'm also a perfectionist. I strive to be.

For a lack of a better word i used supremacy + I like being an edgy sh**** so why not? Supremacy in and of itself isn't bad just because people throw around the term white supremacy gives it that stigma (at least here in the west). When rooting for a team and cheering when they beat them is a form of supremacy and even wanting the best for yourself like being free, striving for self improvement are forms of supremacy. The state of being supreme in every facet of your life is desirable.

I like the idea of perfectionism, having that inner drive to improve performance on tasks, whether running a faster mile or earning a higher grade. However I think its not a healthy way to pursue excellence. Those who strive for excellence in a healthy way take genuine pleasure in trying to meet high standards. I know i can't achieve perfection in every way since i am constrained to my biological imperfections.
  • Healthy Striving
  • Setting standards that are high but within reach
  • Enjoying process as well as outcome
  • Bouncing back quickly from failure or disappointment
  • Keeping normal anxiety and fear of failure within bounds
  • Seeing mistakes as opportunities for growth and learning
  • Reacting positively to helpful criticism
  • Perfectionism
  • Setting standards beyond reach and reason
  • Never being satisfied by anything less than perfection
  • Becoming depressed when faced with failure or disappointment
  • Being preoccupied with fears of failure and disapproval
  • Seeing mistakes as evidence of unworthiness
  • Becoming overly defensive when criticized

While I don't necessarily see "Never being satisfied and seeing mistakes as evidence of unworthiness" as something wrong...
the others seem to be negative qualities that won't help my well being (they will only waste my time and energy if i dwell on them for too long).

Now interestingly Roen see's fear as a good thing. I think he may be right since his goal is to live indefinitely then logically you would want to make sure every single action you do is scrutinized to give you the most optimal chance of survival. I'm being lazy as i'm allowing my desires to let me choose unhealthy junk food. I've felt that moderation is the key to having a normal life and that was just my way of excusing my bad habits and lack of self discipline. I don't have the urgent sense of fear controlling me since I'm optimistic that if i live a normal average life i'll still be able to see the technology available. So I don't feel the need to see it as necessary to put so much work into increasing my life expectancy when my old body will probably be replaced all together in the near future. My way is riskier and dumb since we both have the same goal. I just can't seem to motivate myself to strive for a rigorous healthy lifestyle. As I age i'm sure fear will eventually grow on me and incentivize me to make healthier decisions.

This type of fear is for all the right reasons since we're talking about health. And it makes me wonder if instilling this type of fear at an early age is actually a moral thing to do. Making children understand that death should be something to be feared isn't bad. We already teach our children not to eat contaminated dirty things, brushing teeth, and looking both ways when crossing the side walk. Allowing oneself to let others pick the path of death and destruction seems immoral. I mean one could just allow their children to make that decision for themselves but since parents have that knowledge i don't see why they would suppress that information.
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