Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Atheism - ? I agree..
#11
dixon Wrote:I wonder if those biblical people also teach Ezekiel 23:19-21 to their children.
That's a rather famous passage, taken out of context.

dubbleD Wrote:i for one also have the train of thought that if you're only 'surviving', thats not gonna keep up forever the way it is. at a logical perspective, i'd figured that lots of people would deduce this already.
You'd be amazed how far some people can get through inaction. Not necessarily a good end, but far.

dubbleD Wrote:i totally agree about what youre saying that if god didnt first love and that we needed to prove it, it would make the whole message pointless. my background to my perspective is that, imagine if we were just too weak to even do something, someone has to help. i dont see it as superiority, and thats where i think the misunderstanding (my lack of explanation maybe) occurs. to me i see it as a reaction and and its more humbling instead. when i realise what an idiot i am and that i'm still loved by someone despite what i do. an honest, heartfelt and response is to love back because its just a natural response. thats pretty much where im coming from. hope this doesnt make things any more complicated
I didn't mean to be offensive, just pointed out what it seemed like to me. Indeed, loving back is your honest and heartfelt response, perhaps natural for you, not obligatorily for everybody else. Great that you decide to do it this way.

Kevin Wrote:Dixon's post isn't quite off topic.
He pointed out that not everything in the bible is good. In fact, you cannot find anything that a normal human, without the help of God, could not have written 2,000 years ago. It's just logical to point out that the bible is just another man-made fiction.
It's not off-topic, but read above.

Kevin Wrote:The bible even use knowledge from 2,000 years ago that is now scientifically proven wrong. For example, the creation of different species. Back then, people don't know about the theory of evolution, so that the story of the creation of the world was written that way. Today, it's proven wrong from many evidence (including fossils, for instance).
The bible is outdated, big news. They're not mutually exclusive but many people choose to: believing in science or believing in religion (whichever it is). Also, your example isn't the best. The theory of evolution continues to be questioned even today in the scientific community, although for different reasons.

Kevin Wrote:When one part of the bible is proven wrong, can we still believe the truth of the other parts? XD
One person lies to you once, you question everything? That's pretty harsh. Where to draw the line depends on what kind of effect that lie has upon you.

Kevin Wrote:Well, actually people has got one way to get out of it: rationalization

- when the bible says something wrong, then it must just be an illustration. e.g. God created the world in 6 days, it must be an illustration to an actually very long time span.
- when something good is going on, it must be the blessing of God
- but when something bad is happening, it must be a trial from the God

Apparently, with rationalization we can make everything seems correct.
God creating the world in 6 days isn't one of the bible's metaphors. However, I agree that the last two are included in the mindset of religious people in general. My main issue with that viewpoint is that it takes away the merit of your successes and the character of your defeats.

Kevin Wrote:The origin of universe is also a very weak argument, because the existence of God itself is just as impossible, and since he still has to create the universe after he impossibly appear, it's just more impossible than just the universe.
The existence of God itself is just as impossible, but if you do assume he exists then it doesn't really matter how it came to be, does it? It's all about where you start from. You don't question what came before, but what happened after.

You need to work on your argumenting skills. Search your doubts further, you need stronger reasoning either for becoming an atheist or finding that your beliefs are right (for you).
Reply
Thanks given by:
#12
read the holy Quran it will help you
haahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha..........

Need more ppl who can sprite backgrounds and weapons
Our TLOK Mod Site: http://legendofkorralf2.shivtr.com/
Reply
Thanks given by: bashscrazy , mfc , A-Man
#13
@dixon link
First bible shows history and history has a lot of things in it, even prostitutes and other things. That is helpful for understanding and knowing the past.
But i don't think that little kids read the full version of bible,there are a lot of shot versions for children and young.


@Kevin and Evil sonidow
6 days are not days like in real life, they are much more longer. Also the description in bible matches with theory of evolution.


The universe has not been appeared suddenly. There has been something that created it. And i think we know to less about the world. Nowadays physicians are throwing theories about some more dimensions.


@Kevin
I don't know a lot about history of Indonesia, but i am wondering does it begin with the law that everybody must believe?


@others
How many of you have read bible (or Quran)? And why did you read it?

@dixon
Form your words you look that you are now believer. But this is very weird, how did you knew about that link?
Reply
Thanks given by:
#14
yes i need this thread
finally a good debate
Richard Dawkins Wrote:I need to say something to American readers in particular at this
point, for the religiosity of today's America is something truly
remarkable. The lawyer Wendy Kaminer was exaggerating only
slightly when she remarked that making fun of religion is as risky
as burning a flag in an American Legion Hall.1 The status of
atheists in America today is on a par with that of homosexuals fifty
years ago. Now, after the Gay Pride movement, it is possible,
though still not very easy, for a homosexual to be elected to public
office. A Gallup poll taken in 1999 asked Americans whether they
would vote for an otherwise well-qualified person who was a woman
(95 per cent would), Roman Catholic (94 per cent would), Jew (92 per
cent), black (92 per cent), Mormon (79 per cent), homosexual (79
per cent) or atheist (49 per cent). Clearly we have a long way to go.
But atheists are a lot more numerous, especially among the educated
elite, than many realize. This was so even in the nineteenth century,
when John Stuart Mill was already able to say: 'The world would be
astonished if it knew how great a proportion of its brightest
ornaments, of those most distinguished even in popular estimation for
wisdom and virtue, are complete sceptics in religion.'
This must be even truer today and, indeed, I present evidence for
it. The reason so many people don't notice atheists is
that many of us are reluctant to 'come out'. My dream is that this
book may help people to come out. Exactly as in the case of the gay
movement, the more people come out, the easier it will be for others
to join them. There may be a critical mass for the initiation of a
chain reaction.
American polls suggest that atheists and agnostics far outnumber
religious Jews, and even outnumber most other particular
religious groups. Unlike Jews, however, who are notoriously one of
the most effective political lobbies in the United States, and unlike
evangelical Christians, who wield even greater political power,
atheists and agnostics are not organized and therefore exert almost
zero influence. Indeed, organizing atheists has been compared to
P R E F A C E 5
herding cats, because they tend to think independently and will not
conform to authority. But a good first step would be to build up a
critical mass of those willing to 'come out', thereby encouraging
others to do so. Even if they can't be herded, cats in sufficient
numbers can make a lot of noise and they cannot be ignored.
The word 'delusion' in my title has disquieted some psychiatrists
who regard it as a technical term, not to be bandied about. Three
of them wrote to me to propose a special technical term for
religious delusion: 'relusion'.2 Maybe it'll catch on. But for now I
am going to stick with 'delusion', and I need to justify my use of it.
The Penguin English Dictionary defines a delusion as 'a false belief
or impression'. Surprisingly, the illustrative quotation the dictionary
gives is from Phillip E. Johnson: 'Darwinism is the story of
humanity's liberation from the delusion that its destiny is controlled
by a power higher than itself.' Can that be the same Phillip E.
Johnson who leads the creationist charge against Darwinism in
America today? Indeed it is, and the quotation is, as we might
guess, taken out of context. I hope the fact that I have stated as
much will be noted, since the same courtesy has not been extended
to me in numerous creationist quotations of my works, deliberately
and misleadingly taken out of context. Whatever Johnson's own
meaning, his sentence as it stands is one that I would be happy to
endorse. The dictionary supplied with Microsoft Word defines a
delusion as 'a persistent false belief held in the face of strong
contradictory evidence, especially as a symptom of psychiatric disorder'.
The first part captures religious faith perfectly. As to
whether it is a symptom of a psychiatric disorder, I am inclined to
follow Robert M. Pirsig, author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance, when he said, 'When one person suffers from a
delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from
a delusion it is called Religion
now please read this carefully as it makes proper sense
dawkins says that atheists are reluctant to come out and tell the world that they do not believe in god...
ive come out and now youve come out
Kevin, welcome to the family :D
further arguement will be entertained, i need to debate
i.e. god is not real


and
empire Wrote:@Kevin and Evil sonidow
6 days are not days like in real life, they are much more longer
just read that again and again
now doesnt that sound really silly to you?
how can you believe that?
and how is it that the world was made in 2000 years
it doesnt make any sense
it is proved that fossils were there much before that millions of years age
science trumps religion
[Image: Blaze340.gif]
Reply
Thanks given by:
#15
@empirefantasy

Most of my family tree is currenty consisting of hardcore catholics filled with conservativeness to the core. I was raised as one but I'm just unable to see a point in all that. I really didn't find available material as being enough for persuading me. I'm neutral in this regard - I don't really care about any sort of religion, consider it as a part of everyday life in current modern society and tolerate it unless someone is trying to force it onto me. If I were to point out a thing that really made me start questioning this matter, it would be the obvious 'incompatibility' between each religion, huge masses of people all having their own completely unrelated truths, higher beings, traditions and stamping all different religions as unacceptable, bad, wrong and only 'our' as the correct, saint, acceptable one. Christians are especially intolerable religion in this regard, probably the most out of all world-wide religions.
Reply
Thanks given by: qwertz143
#16
(07-01-2012, 02:22 PM)dixon Wrote:  @empirefantasy

Most of my family tree is currenty consisting of hardcore catholics filled with conservativeness to the core. I was raised as one but I'm just unable to see a point in all that. I really didn't find available material as being enough for persuading me. I'm neutral in this regard - I don't really care about any sort of religion, consider it as a part of everyday life in current modern society and tolerate it unless someone is trying to force it onto me. If I were to point out a thing that really made me start questioning this matter, it would be the obvious 'incompatibility' between each religion, huge masses of people all having their own completely unrelated truths, higher beings, traditions and stamping all different religions as unacceptable, bad, wrong and only 'our' as the correct, saint, acceptable one. Christians are especially intolerable religion in this regard, probably the most out of all world-wide religions.

yes he is actually right
christians are actually brought up and might have to believe its not their fault
from an extract i read recently
"As a child, my wife hated her school and wished she could leave.
Years later, when she was in her twenties, she disclosed this
unhappy fact to her parents, and her mother was aghast: 'But
darling, why didn't you come to us and tell us?' Lalla's reply is my
text for today: 'But I didn't know I could.'
I didn't know I could.
I suspect - well, I am sure - that there are lots of people out there
who have been brought up in some religion or other, are unhappy
in it, don't believe it, or are worried about the evils that are done in
its name; people who feel vague yearnings to leave their parents'
religion and wish they could, but just don't realize that leaving is an
option. If you are one of them, this book is for you. It is intended
to raise consciousness - raise consciousness to the fact that to be an
atheist is a realistic aspiration, and a brave and splendid one. You
can be an atheist who is happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually
fulfilled."
this way i proved your point and also atheism is good, but u can keep it silent if u want and still live happy

empirefantasy Wrote:@Dixon link
First bible shows history and history has a lot of things in it, even prostitutes and other things. That is helpful for understanding and knowing the past.
But i don't think that little kids read the full version of bible,there are a lot of shot versions for children and young.
uh actually i dont think its helpful
and the prostitute thing
thats the last testament
its the whore of babylon and seven bowls of wrath which has got nothing to do which is important
this is about the end of the world
it is future and hence u cant understand the past

empire Wrote:@others
How many of you have read bible (or Quran)? And why did you read it?
i doubt anyone has read it fully, and if they did it was mostly because there parents forced them to
and they wouldnt understand much as most people wont be able to paraphrase

ef Wrote:@Dixon
Form your words you look that you are now believer. But this is very weird, how did you knew about that link?
no it seems that he is brought up as a christian, but doesnt believe in god
[Image: Blaze340.gif]
Reply
Thanks given by:
#17
(07-01-2012, 02:04 AM)Evil Sonidow Wrote:  God creating the world in 6 days isn't one of the bible's metaphors.
I neither agree nor disagree with you, but as you are rather considerate about making clear what's your opinion and what you think of as a fact, I'd be interested in knowing why you are so sure about this part in particular.

(07-01-2012, 02:28 PM)qwertz143 Wrote:  christians are actually brought up and might have to believe its not their fault
It's the people who are stubborn and narrow-minded, it's not an inherent trait of the christian religion. I'm going to go out on a limb and claim that with an increasing number of atheists, more people brought up in an atheist family will be afraid of confessing they believe in god. I really hope people in general will become more open-minded, though.
However, I never met anyone not open to other beliefs. I'd say thanks god I'm not living in America, but somehow that'd feel weird...
Note: I'm an atheist myself. Or rather an agnostic atheist, pesky definitions :P

Quote:i doubt anyone has read it fully, and if they did it was mostly because there parents forced them to
and they wouldnt understand much as most people wont be able to paraphrase
While I've only read bits and pieces of it, I know a couple of people who have read it (almost) fully. Most of them are atheists, but I believe that is because I know more atheists than christians.
The bible is a book that has been around for 2000 years and still it holds a significance for people few other books can match. After several hundred years of studying it, there still are debates about how to interpret it. I fail to see why it wouldn't be interesting to read it, no matter what beliefs you have.
Reply
Thanks given by: qwertz143
#18
(07-01-2012, 06:51 PM)Reaper Wrote:  
(07-01-2012, 02:04 AM)Evil Sonidow Wrote:  God creating the world in 6 days isn't one of the bible's metaphors.
I neither agree nor disagree with you, but as you are rather considerate about making clear what's your opinion and what you think of as a fact, I'd be interested in knowing why you are so sure about this part in particular.

I disagree. I've met(in person, I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands+) at least 3 scholars that agree that it's not saying that it was really created in 6 days.

Anyway, this subject can really be split into two parts ( at least in my opinion ). The existence of an omnipotent magical being and human religion(which obviously references but is separate in my mind).

In terms of arguing the existence of this magical being that created the universe, it's pretty much as equally likely as every other explanation that humans can come up with. I doubt that in our lifetime we'll ever truly understand what happened at "the beginning of time".

Human Religion, they are all bullsh*t in my mind. My explanation for Judaism is that there was some smart dude who saw humans destroying each other and he decided that he could manipulate them through fear of an omnipotent being to make stupid people be less stupid.

The Old Testament actually had many things that made sense (in the past, not now). The 10 commandments are pretty useful, they are basically law in all countries now days because it makes sense. In the past as an intelligent person how would you convince a bunch of retards to not go and slaughter each other? Make them fear this bad a** mofo that we call god.

The Old Testament has parts about washing your hands and stuff. Makes sense. Don't eat pork, pigs were filthy animals and probably spread disease, makes sense. They could use this to motivate people to go to war and due to motivation, win. When they lost they can just blame it on people not believing in god and thus losing.

So in the past religion made sense, manipulate the idiots into not killing them selves and saving large portions of the human population.

Also, the bible was all written by humans, in a language which wasn't English. It was all translated, multiple times and sh*t and organised and interpreted multiple times.

Anyway, there were many religions predating the whole Judaism monotheism thing. Many which share quite a few similarities with our current religions( look up Mithraism yo!). I also remember talking to someone that was talking about "Ugarit" texts and claiming how the old testament was originally written in Ugarit and then rewritten to be monotheistic and thus changing history or something(sounds like bullsh*t, I never bothered looking into it but it sounds plausible).

The current religions are just all wrong. I mean just look at how many sub divisions there are now inside our main western religions and stuff. There are so many disagreements between scholars and stuff, many scholars have completely different and wild theories which most of the public is completely ignorant in regards too(don't get me wrong, so am I. Sometimes I read a bit about it, but then realize I don't care). There is just so much controversy about this stuff and interpretations of stuff. Imagine how many different theories and sh*t happened up to this point.

2.45 am, my post probably doesn't make sense and could be rewritten better too have some continuity running through it rather than just making a new paragraph for everything and having my points be completely random. Still this is lfe, not some English essay that I'm writing.

tl;dr "God" may be real or not real. Our current religions are without a doubt have a very high chance of being wrong wrong.
[Image: doty7Xn.gif]

10 ʏᴇᴀʀs sɪɴᴄᴇ ɪʀᴄ ɢᴏᴏᴅ.ɪ ᴡᴀʟᴋ ᴛʜʀᴏᴜɢʜ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇᴍᴘᴛʏ sᴛʀᴇᴇᴛs ᴛʀʏɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜɪɴᴋ ᴏғ sᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴇʟsᴇ ʙᴜᴛ ᴍʏ ᴘᴀᴛʜ ᴀʟᴡᴀʏs ʟᴇᴀᴅs ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ɪʀᴄ. ɪ sᴛᴀʀᴇ ᴀᴛ ᴛʜᴇ sᴄʀᴇᴇɴ ғᴏʀ ʜᴏᴜʀs ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʀʏ ᴛᴏ sᴜᴍᴍᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴏᴏᴅ ɪʀᴄ. ɪ ᴡᴀᴛᴄʜ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ɪʀᴄ ᴄʜᴀɴɴᴇʟs ʙᴜᴛ ɪᴛ ɪs ɴᴏ ɢᴏᴏᴅ. ɪ ᴘᴇsᴛᴇʀ ᴢᴏʀᴛ ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʀʏ ᴛᴏ ʀᴇsɪsᴛ ʜɪs sᴇxɪɴᴇss ʙᴜᴛ ɪᴛ ɪs ᴀʟʟ ᴍᴇᴀɴɪɴɢʟᴇss. ᴛʜᴇ ᴇɴᴅ ɪs ɴᴇᴀʀ.ɪ ᴛʜᴇɴ ᴜsᴜᴀʟʟʏ ʀᴇᴀᴅ sᴏᴍᴇ ᴏʟᴅ ɪʀᴄ ʟᴏɢs ᴀɴᴅ ᴄʀʏ ᴍʏsᴇʟғ ᴛᴏ sʟᴇᴇᴘ.


Reply
Thanks given by: Apocalipsis , MnM , qwertz143 , Jernemies , STM1993
#19
BUT MY RELIGION IS TRUE AND I HAVE NO DOUBT
haahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahaha..........

Need more ppl who can sprite backgrounds and weapons
Our TLOK Mod Site: http://legendofkorralf2.shivtr.com/
Reply
Thanks given by: A-Man
#20
I totally agree with Lord Silva. I wanted to write something similar with that (later) but he wrote it before me.Great.

Quote:I disagree. I've met(in person, I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands+) at least 3 scholars that agree that it's not saying that it was really created in 6 days.
Well, bible says in 6 days.


Quote:Also, the bible was all written by humans, in a language which wasn't English.
Yea, it was the old Greek language.


Quote:and how is it that the world was made in 2000 years...
It still more than that. A year should be more longer than a human year.



The Christian is separated in two main religions , Orthodox and Catholic. And that because of politic of Roman Empire.
Then later Protestants, Luterians,etc created new religions. The Catholic church didnt accepted them, even they were real believer, not liar and stealer like Catholic. That because of politic too, Catholic church didnt liked to lost their role.

Also as Silva mentioned prophets has been smart while writing rules. Example, prophet Muhamed disallowed eating pig's meant. The easy understanding reason was because it is harmful in hot places, like in Arabia.


I read from your words that parents has force you to read bible and to be a believer. I am not that familiar with that because here most of the parents tell to their children to read bible or Quran. That's because most of the people do not take care about religion. Sometime they say their religion, because of their family (mostly before world war II), but not real believer.
Reply
Thanks given by:




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)