New Command Ideas

[LutiChris]

instead of using STAY, COME and MOVE commands
write down what commands or catch phrases you would like to see implemented into lf2?

I personally wanna see more taunting and contemptuous acts.
one of my favorite moves that i like to perform is to:
repeatedly crouch up and down over my enemy's dead bodies and humiliate them (i.e. tea-bagging)
im sure all of you are familiar with that, it's pretty amusing. i'd probably use the (def + def + def move)
let us know what you would like to see.

[STM1993]

Would be nice if there were a separate button input used for commands.

* Ability to ask specific people to move/come/stay. I hate how Jan always runs ahead and get herself killed instead of playing get-away & healing from afar, and how I can't split my army into two groups - one to engage the front, another to protect the milk.
* Guard. Difference from the normal stay command is that the characters will return to the spot they were asked to stay at rather than keep moving away.
* Order your army to drink/not drink milk/beer. Sometimes I'm half-dead and desperately need a milk, only for one of my idiot mooks steal it and drink it for himself. At the same time, when I'm already perfectly healthy, I want my army to drink up before fighting or to fall back and recover while I tank the enemy.

Taunts can work in many ways; can cause the enemy to be lured towards you like an enemy-influencing version of Come. Or you can take the route that X-LF2 & Devil May Cry goes where it restores mana(the former restores 20mp instantly with the input DDJ, the latter recovers the Super mode + combo meter if the taunt is uninterrupted and cannot be spammed to get the effect).

[YinYin]

humiliate them

no

it's pretty amusing

no
I hate this part of gaming culture. This is degrading. You said it yourself. Taunting can be fun (see super smash bros.), but humiliation never is. Thank you.

Would be nice if there were a separate button input used for commands.

* Ability to ask specific people to move/come/stay. I hate how Jan always runs ahead and get herself killed instead of playing get-away & healing from afar, and how I can't split my army into two groups - one to engage the front, another to protect the milk.
* Guard. Difference from the normal stay command is that the characters will return to the spot they were asked to stay at rather than keep moving away.

Hero Fighter has all that.

I myself do like to use move/come on my opponents. I could certainly imagine making AI more aggressive upon seeing this from the opponent.
Other than that and changing the stay function into guard and improving certain support characters AIs when in a group (Jan/Sorcerer/Hunter stay behind melee fighters) I don't really have any ideas for new commands that would significantly improve the game play. An extra button is always a hassle to me and I really like how LF2 handles its inputs. I don't see how more or non-commanding commands could create enough benefit to justify the increased input complexity (move/come/stay(guard) is really all you need).
The automatic fall back for recover is already inside the AI. A smarter milk management could be done through improving the AI (I don't see commands requiring an update: if you don't want them to help themselves just make them stay somewhere else - if you do, use the move/come command).

One awesome thing related to this but not requiring a new button or input would be divisions:
Like in Hero Fighter you could assign a support group to a single player (lets say Hunters to a Henry player and Jacks to a Woody player). They both fight in the same team but will only command their own division (until the division leader is dead, upon which they lead the whole team). This could make multi player battle mode more interesting and even in stage mode you could always initially assign a free'd criminal to the player who free'd him. Without creating too much strategic hassle for a single fighter to manage this would create the possibility of interesting strategies in team battles.




edit: One more thing. I gotta admit I sometimes would like to use a follow command instead of come. Then again come itself is very useful as you can use it to mark a soon to be dangerous spot for your army and get away before hell breaks loose. The stay and guard commands have a similar duality of advantages and disadvantages (stay allows them to roughly help each other out by still changing their position, while guard is more precise for them to actually hold their position).

My proposition on how to best implement follow and guard into the existing input scheme without disrupting it would be this:
If you perform come or stay twice in a row the second time it will perform the commands follow and guard as they are the new and more precise versions.
I think for both of them you need a rather good reason to use them.
Follow wouldn't be too bad to execute as you can press D and J at the same time, essentially still pushing your buttons 4 times.
Guard on the other hand will require D 8 times and will execute the stay command first - that may not be quite so handy.

Any smart ideas on guard/follow that don't require a new button?

[STM1993]

My proposition on how to best implement follow and guard into the existing input scheme without disrupting it would be this:
If you perform come or stay twice in a row the second time it will perform the commands follow and guard as they are the new and more precise versions.
I think for both of them you need a rather good reason to use them.
Follow wouldn't be too bad to execute as you can press D and J at the same time, essentially still pushing your buttons 4 times.
Guard on the other hand will require D 8 times and will execute the stay command first - that may not be quite so handy.

Any smart ideas on guard/follow that don't require a new button?

DJDJ = Come
DJDJDJ = Guard
DDD = Stay
DADA = Move
DADADA = Follow
DAJ(DAJ) = Taunt

Use Come to get army to move to designated location or to cover you.
Use Move to ask your army to attack with their default AI.

Follow should extend from Move since it only serves to remove Stay and doesn't need to be spammed, and naturally you'd want your army to be moving with you and engaging nearby enemies in Follow state. It can also be a good way to maneuver your army on the z-axis to make them dodge attacks without making the army running all the way to your side. Plus, Come doesn't make your army follow you on the z-axis if they are already on the same x-axis as you.
(incidentally, your army does follow you if there are no enemies and you walk backwards, pity it isn't much use)

Usually you'd ask your army to Stay after Come. However I want to avoid extending to Stay because its just spamming a Defend button. So I propose that Guard should come from Come's input. Though frankly I'd rather have Guard replace Stay and save the input for something else as guard is an all-around more useful command than Stay; I dislike how the army tends to walk out of their designated location just because they were provoked by a nearby enemy and cause them to come closer and closer to the frontline.

Finally there's DAJ for Taunt since I doubt there are better inputs with existing controls without potential confusion with DJA or other commands.

[YinYin]

DJDJ = Come
DJDJDJ = Guard
DDD = Stay
DADA = Move
DADADA = Follow
DAJ(DAJ) = Taunt

While this would work and be faster, the half follow ups (+DJ/+DA) may be a little confusing.

Follow should extend from Move since it only serves to remove Stay and doesn't need to be spammed, and naturally you'd want your army to be moving with you and engaging nearby enemies in Follow state. It can also be a good way to maneuver your army on the z-axis to make them dodge attacks without making the army running all the way to your side. Plus, Come doesn't make your army follow you on the z-axis if they are already on the same x-axis as you.

True, follow would remove the stay command just like move, while come just shifts position and keeps the stay command active.

I'm also thinking that by holding a direction while executing the move command you could send your army towards one of 8 directions (similar to Hero Fighter). Once they have passed the point into the assigned direction where you made the command they would go back to free movement or stay/guard - similar to come. May be a better way to direct your army than the come and follow commands (if you have a quick character like Rudolf you can give them directions and before they even reached the position you are aready off and away doing other things). This may also be a little confusing as only the move command without direction would remove the stay command and follow would also require you to not change direction along the way.

Usually you'd ask your army to Stay after Come.

Doesn't stay stop them where they are? I use stay first and position them with come second. Using it the other way around separates them either by running speed (stay too early) or walking speed (stay too late).

However I want to avoid extending to Stay because its just spamming a Defend button. So I propose that Guard should come from Come's input. Though frankly I'd rather have Guard replace Stay and save the input for something else as guard is an all-around more useful command than Stay; I dislike how the army tends to walk out of their designated location just because they were provoked by a nearby enemy and cause them to come closer and closer to the frontline.

Well, this is mostly a problem because they walk out alone. This problem would persist with the guard command (even if they return to their position, should they survive the fight on their own). While it may be frustrating to have your army notch closer to the front when you don't want them too, it would still be a pretty smart survival move of them if they at least did it as a group. It might even unexpectedly save you.

[STM1993]

While this would work and be faster, the half follow ups (+DJ/+DA) may be a little confusing.

Think of it as using DvAJA instead of DvA D^JA with Davis/Deep. I doubt the slight input confusion is ultimately an issue and I'd rather reduce the finger dexterity requirement so more players can access the command easily. I'm a firm believer that a game should focus on the player's ability to know when to use a move than his ability to input the move.

Usually you'd ask your army to Stay after Come.

Doesn't stay stop them where they are? I use stay first and position them with come second. Using it the other way around separates them either by running speed (stay too early) or walking speed (stay too late).

Nope, I had always used Come followed by Stay. The AI abandons everything to come to you, only resuming their move or stay behavior when they reach, even if they were knocked down while trying to come to you.

That said, I can see why you'd want to be able to use Stay to stop the AI to cancel the Come order.

Well, this is mostly a problem because they walk out alone. This problem would persist with the guard command (even if they return to their position, should they survive the fight on their own). While it may be frustrating to have your army notch closer to the front when you don't want them too, it would still be a pretty smart survival move of them if they at least did it as a group. It might even unexpectedly save you.

Perhaps the AI could stay within the stay engage range, but after the enemy is knocked down, they'd return to their guard spot. If they exceed a certain further range, the AI could be forced to go back as if they were ordered to come.

[YinYin]

Think of it as using DvAJA instead of DvA D^JA with Davis/Deep. I doubt the slight input confusion is ultimately an issue and I'd rather reduce the finger dexterity requirement so more players can access the command easily.

Because this only repeats the same keys instead of combining different ones it isn't really about dexterity at all. It's only speed versus knowing that 4 in a row (D or DX pairs) will always perform a command.
To stay in line with the 4 in a row rule and not increasing or even doubling the key inputs maybe DADJ and DJDA could be a thing?

I'm a firm believer that a game should focus on the player's ability to know when to use a move than his ability to input the move.

You cannot detach these two things or put one above the other. If a player doesn't know when to use an ability it becomes useless. If a player has trouble using an ability it becomes useless as well.

The AI abandons everything to come to you, only resuming their move or stay behavior when they reach, even if they were knocked down while trying to come to you.

That said, I can see why you'd want to be able to use Stay to stop the AI to cancel the Come order.

Cool, I learned something. I also tested it and even the move command cannot cancel a come command. That's pretty flawed and makes come a rather suicidal and risky command.

[STM1993]

I'm a firm believer that a game should focus on the player's ability to know when to use a move than his ability to input the move.

You cannot detach these two things or put one above the other. If a player doesn't know when to use an ability it becomes useless. If a player has trouble using an ability it becomes useless as well.

My point is I want to reduce difficulty resulting from a technical limitations or a person's physical handicap; imagine if we played games using our minds instead of physically hitting the buttons. That, and I don't think its a fair challenge if a game's difficulty arises from poor controls rather than the actual game itself like in the infamous Dark Castle.

But I digress.

Think of it as using DvAJA instead of DvA D^JA with Davis/Deep. I doubt the slight input confusion is ultimately an issue and I'd rather reduce the finger dexterity requirement so more players can access the command easily.

Because this only repeats the same keys instead of combining different ones it isn't really about dexterity at all. It's only speed versus knowing that 4 in a row (D or DX pairs) will always perform a command.
To stay in line with the 4 in a row rule and not increasing or even doubling the key inputs maybe DADJ and DJDA could be a thing?

Which in turn breaks the other rule where its the same input being repeated twice, but that said, this is the best solution without having to add a dedicated button for commands as it has the most flexibility & options at the same time.

The other worry I had about the 4 extra input thing is related to not knowing whether I'm inputting Come twice or Come->Follow. After playing around, I realize its not an issue as any directional input would cancel the whole string (plus you'd only use come again if you needed to move anyway) and I didn't have too much trouble getting Come twice in a row. Even if this is an issue, having a button-input recorder like the one you released would solve it.


EDIT:
More ideas on additional commands:
* Fetch - ask a teammate to grab a weapon and bring it to you. With Freeze, he could summon an ice sword for you.
* Arm/disarm - ask teammates to grab/ignore weapons. I suggest this because you don't want archers to grab a melee weapon when they provide better assistance with arrows, and your own allies are just as susceptible to being lured by weapons as the enemy. You don't want Jan to carry a heavy weapon either.
* Scatter - ask teammates to spread out on the z-axis. Compared to the usual AI behavior of being in one row, this may lead to less effective ganging, but it also protects the army from crowd-control attacks which are usually stuff like fire or Henry's D>J.
Also, commands like move/stay, scatter/unscatter could be toggle-type commands. This will free up inputs.

[empirefantasy]

DADJ- use D>A
DJDA-attack this (the character who is closer to you)
DJDDJ- Escape
DDJDJ-go to drink
DADDA- insane attack
...

[Dr.Death]

I know why taunting can be fun, but beeing the one getting taunted all the time after doing a mistake can be kinda frustrating at some point....

I'd rather add some features like useless commands more to communicate with people you play with.
For Example if you can say LOL or GJ or "Henry PLS" :P

I only could think of some other "Come" move because i usually don't prefer my team to blindly run foreward, i'd appresciate if they try to avoid stuff or do that kind of combat move that exists in Strategy games, so people would try to strike the enemy down and then proceed to run to the called location.

Not allowing them to drink bottles would be cool though too